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Reflection about The Republic of Plato
Thrasymachus and justice
Socrates and the pursuit of wisdom prompt
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Recommended: Reflection about The Republic of Plato
In Plato's Republic, Socrates acknowledges that he knows only one thing for certain; he knows nothing. This is a crucial part of his understanding of human nature because he lacks problematic assumptions based on presuppositions that lead others to think they know. This allows him to explore and develop his philosophies freely, which is the goal of The Philosopher. We can get a glimpse of Socrates' idea of human nature by examining his dialogs relating to Justice, The Good, division of The Soul, The City, The Nobel Lie, The Allegory of The Cave, The Divided Line, and The Realm of Perfect Realities or Forms; All of which form his metaphysical world view. The idea of intersubjectivity is a major theme in Socrates' discussions because everything must be in relation to another. This can explain why Socrates seeks truth through an inquiry of questions and perhaps even though the inquiry of others.
Typically Socrates inquires along with others with a equal respect for one another to preserve dialog and discussion from being limited by language power struggles from ones character. Some do not bring such civilized notions, however, and may even be considered wild. We can see an example of this through Plato's description of Thrasymachus, one antagonist of Justice, as coiled up like a wild beast crouching and approaching Socrates as if he wanted to tear Socrates apart. This hints at Thrasymachus' animal like character before any dialog has even began and that any dialog to follow will likely be limited by his uncontrollable desire or appetite for his idea of Justice on an individual scale to be correct. Thrasymachus first defines Justice, in the form of a "just action," as doing what is in the interest of the strong and then follows by cl...
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... in the truest sense. However in The City, where the individual is in relation to others, a Nobel Lie or myth may be used to draw people towards The Good. This cannot be used on Thrasymachus because he takes a different position based upon his perceptions he has built, which leads him to be viewed as someone beyond The City with a more animal like conception of Justice. This makes me believe that Thrasymachus has a certain Darwinism aspect to him that causes many of his problematic assumptions like overreaching. We see overreaching to this day and know that it creates imbalances, which leads to injustices. Within The City the individual is protected by a sort of moral shield of ignorance, but The City itself will become increasingly corrupted until the individual soul is also drawn away from The Good. Thus the just life is preferable to to life of perfect injustice.
By entering into the dialogue in an aggressive way, Thrasymachus says that he can better explain the issue of justice. The right thing to do here is disregard justice. He blames Socrates for saying nonsense and for just questioning individuals' answers. Thrasymachus
Socrates asks the questions he does during his court case because he feels that it is his calling from the gods; questioning the world around him is his focus. However, this idea of following and obeying the gods contradicts Plato’s thoughts in The Republic. To Plato, the justice system in Greece was built upon the ability to not only willingly follow the gods, but also to act in complete reflection with the gods and their unchanging
It is his companions, Glaucon and Adeimantus, who revitalized Thrasymachus’ claim of justice. Thrasymachus believes that justice is what the people who are in charge say it is and from that point on it is Socrates’ goal to prove him wrong. Socrates believes that justice is desired for itself and works as a benefit. All four characters would agree that justice has a benefit. To accurately prove his point of justice, Socrates has to reference his own version of nature and nurture. He, Socrates, believes that justice is innately born in everyone. No one person is incapable of being just. Justice is tantamount to a skill or talent. Like any skill or talent, justice must be nurtured so that it is at its peak and mastered form. The city that Socrates has built is perfect in his eyes because every denizen has been gifted with a talent, then properly educated on how best to use their talent, and lastly able to apply their just morals in everyday
Thrasymachus approaches Socrates, the main character of Republic and most of Plato's work, during a conversation on the topic of morality. The aggressive Thrasymachus interjects his own opinion; morality is "the advantage of the stronger." (Republic 338c) Upon clarification, Thrasymachus lays out his view of socially created moral relativism, as opposed to Socrates' moral objectivism. Thrasymachus illustrates his view by citing how different types of government create laws serving purposes specific to each government, "a democracy passing democratic laws, a dictatorship making dictatorial laws… In doing so each government makes it clear that what is right and moral for its subjects is what is to its own advantage." (Republic 338e)
The debate between Thrasymachus and Socrates begins when Thrasymachus gives his definition of justice in a very self-interested form. Thrasymachus believes that justice is only present to benefit the ruler, or the one in charge – and for that matter any one in charge can change the meaning of justice to accommodate their needs (343c). Thrasymachus provides a very complex example supporting his claim. He states that the man that is willing to cheat and be unjust to achieve success will be by far the best, and be better than the just man.
Plato and Aristotle were both very influential men of there time bringing vast knowledge to the world. I honestly believe that Democracy does a lot of good but it definitely has some common side effects. Out of all of Plato's significant ideas, his best was the idea of democracy opening political decisions to the majority who cannot think on behalf of the community. Aristotle on the other hand is very optimistic when it comes to democracy so it becomes a rather interesting compare and contrast between these to men.
The wise and inquisitive Socrates was both a philosopher and a martyr, not just in his words but in his actions as well. Socrates was so adamant about his principles that he wouldn’t deny them to save his own life. A lesser man left in his shoes would have done anything to stop the fate that he faced. Socrates practiced what he preached through and through and for the most part only taught good morals.
The topic of justice first comes about through a conversation between Socrates and Cephalus. The two are reflecting upon their old age, evaluating how they have lived their lives, when Cephalus states that his wealth "keeps him from having to leave life in the fear of owing debts to men or sacrifices to the gods." [331b] This comment leads Socrates to question Cephalus on the subject of justice by asking if he really believed that justice is simply telling the truth and returning what you receive. Socrates feels this definition is too simple, asking if it is "sometimes right to behave in these ways, and sometimes wrong?" [331c] Socrates proposes this question: if someone were to borrow weapons from a friend, and afterwards this friend went mad, would it be just to return the weapons to the friend? Although Cephalus' definition would warrant returning the weapons, the two conclude that it would in fact not be the right thing to do. The two feel that this statement does not fit the definition of justice.
...purpose is “to unmask the hypocrisy and show how the meaning of Justice is being perverted” . He is not prepared to argue, leaving Socrates victorious. Here, Socrates’s method of argumentative questioning is insufficient and naïve against a stubborn, powerful and philosophically certain moral skeptic. This is confirmed by the change in investigative approach in the latter books. Thus the ‘earlier’ Plato cannot adequately respond to Thrasymachus’s immoralist view of Justice.
Out of the confrontation with Cephalus, Polemarchus, and Thrasymachus, Socrates emerges as a reflective individual searching for the rational foundation of morality and human excellence. The views presented by the three men are invalid and limited as they present a biased understanding of justice and require a re-examination of the terminology. The nature in which the faulty arguments are presented, leave the reader longing to search for the rational foundations of morality and human virtue.
Thrasymachus, tired of holding his tongue back, barges into the argument and asks Socrates exactly what justice is; since Socrates cannot answer Thrasymachus offers his perception:
In Book one of the Republic of Plato, several definitions of justice versus injustice are explored. Cephalus, Polemarchus, Glaucon and Thracymicus all share their opinions and ideas on what actions they believe to be just, while Socrates questions various aspects of the definitions. In book one, Socrates is challenged by Thracymicus, who believes that injustice is advantageous, but eventually convinces him that his definition is invalid. Cephalus speaks about honesty and issues of legality, Polemarchus explores ideas regarding giving to one what is owed, Glaucon views justice as actions committed for their consequences, and Socrates argues that justice does not involve harming anybody. Through the interrogations and arguments he has with four other men, and the similarity of his ideas of justice to the word God, Socrates proves that a just man commits acts for the benefits of others, and inflicts harm on nobody.
Thrasymachus’s main argument is that, “Justice is nothing but the advantage of the stronger” (338c). In other words, Thrasymachus believes justice is advantageous to the stronger because those who behave justly are disadvantaged, and the strong who behave unjustly are advantaged. In his sense injustice is more profitable than justice because it allows people to enjoy benefits they would not obtain if they were to act just.
Socrates questions Thrasymachus on why he adds the detail of the stronger to his definition of justice. Socrates than asks, if it is just for everyone to follow the laws that the ruler has made, if the ruler has made unjust laws. His argument is that people, even rulers make mistakes. This meaning that if a ruler makes mistakes on the law does that still make it just. It is a very conflicting argument to think about, if the rules are not just then why should they be followed but the rules were also put in place by someone who is supposed to know the difference between just and unjust and choose correctly. This relates to what Socrates says during his trial portrayed in the Apology. Socrates claims
SOCRATES Socrates was a Greek philosopher who lived between 470-399 B.C. He turned Greek attention toward questions of ethics and virtue and away from those of the heavenly bodies. Socrates spent much time in the Agora (marketplace) where he held conversations with townspeople. Socrates believed that real truth could be found out through thought and collaboration with others. He was known for exposing ignorance, hypocrisy, and conceit. Despite having many followers, Socrates was disliked by most Athenians. At the age of 70, he was convicted of atheism, treason and corruption of the young. He was originally ordered to leave Athens, but chose to drink poison instead. This great man valued the law over his life, and so he chose to drank hemlock over leaving. Socrates is best remembered for his courage and strong moral beliefs which manifested themselves in his lifestyle. Although Socrates did not dwell much on the heavenly bodies, his beliefs that searching could bring about understanding of the world and humans in it laid a foundation that is still very much a part of modern science. In the course of Western Civilization, there have been two trials ending in a sentence of death imposed upon two individuals later deemed grossly unfair and unjust by the verdict of history. One trial was that of Jesus Christ, the other that of Socrates it was Jesus' destiny, and It was Socrates' choice. Both philosophers and theologians, carry a political message, a message apt to rub the ruling power structure's nose in its own mess. Christ defined and built a new moral order. All Socrates ever accomplished was questioning and probing the democratic beliefs of his day. He refused to define proper behavior and what should be done by government. Socrates did not build anything or write nothing; instead he strove to destroy the legitimacy of free men ruling themselves, Both Christ and Socrates were killed at the orders of lesser men for what they said. The story of Jesus Christ and the world in which he lived are well known. Now let us look at Socrates, the world's first "intellectual" and the stage he acted upon. Socrates was the town character. While a member of the middle class, he was on good terms with Pericles, the ruling aristocrat voted the first strategos (general) for over 30 years. Socrates, the perfect snob, surrounded himself with the gilded aristocratic yo...