This essay will argue against Thucydides Melian Dialogue, “the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must,” which is affirmed on the basis of Athens’ conference with the Melians for confiscation of the Spartan island of Melos, but will also provide a counter-argument using evidences from the negotiation. This proclamation is potentially falsifiable in the sense that, if one’s strength, as a status in a community, were to be measured by their morality, assertiveness and self-representation, those who are stronger may not be able to carry out the actions they please. The superior may not always occupy mentalities which are virtuous, which in turn relegates them. The weak may follow through with the consequences brought upon …show more content…
Therefore, Melos is highly vulnerable to being seized by Athens. The high-power held by Athenians and Melos being a small colony, do not succour the Melians. However, in this case, the size of Melos does not impact or define the Melians’ strength. The Melians’ confidence and rectitude are what delineates their strength against the Athenians who were looked upon as unassailable. The Melians portray their strength against all odds by maintaining an ethos that favours what is righteous. Despite the Athenians representation of themselves as being more dominant, the Melians’ virtuous ideologies give them the capacity of defying the Athenians, consequently subjugating the Athenians’ ability to …show more content…
My views on Thucydides declaration, can be counter-argued using evidence from the relationship and conference between the Athenians and the Melians. During the negotiations between the Athenians and the Melians, Athenians purposively overlook the fact that “… the Melians took their adversaries into a private concave, … to avoid any danger of their demos’ welcoming Athenian domination” (Form and Meaning in the Melian Dialogue, 389), so that the Athenians can impose, upon the Melians, all that they covet. Keeping in consideration, the superiority of Athens, the Melians’ settlements are deemed. For “if they do not resist, the Athenians will enslave them; if they do, the Athenians will make war on them — and defeat will also mean slavery and even worse.” (Form and Meaning in the Melian Dialogue, 389) in which case, the Melians’ find themselves dramatically more inferior to Athens due to being in a lose-lose situation. Which ever option they side with, could potentially end the same, tormenting way; with slavery. This is a prime example of Thucydides’ Melian Dialogue. It verifies that, “what is possible for Athens is conquest and what is
Prior, Plutarch accounts for the unequal social framework within Sparta, where tribal leaders owned vast domains of land, in great contrast to the average Spartiate. Furthermore, Hodgkinson suggests the success of social reform in Sparta stems from the redistribution of Messenian land and the Agoge; reinforcing the belief that dissent from this social order would threaten the established hierarchical status of the Spartiates.
According to Thucydides, t... ... middle of paper ... ... henian who had lead the siege against Samos, realised this but also appreciated the dangers of changing this tactic all together – ‘Your empire is now like a tyranny: it may have been wrong to take it; it is certainly dangerous to let it go’. To this extent, it is reasonable that Athens should use such extreme measures, as it seemed to be the only way in which she could uphold her power and keep her allies close. Yet by doing so she had transformed the original aims of the Delian League entirely, which had a purpose to promote freedom and independence.
Throughout Aristophanes’ “Clouds” there is a constant battle between old and new. It makes itself apparent in the Just and Unjust speech as well as between father and son. Ultimately, Pheidippides, whom would be considered ‘new’, triumphs over the old Strepsiades, his father. This is analogous to the Just and Unjust speech. In this debate, Just speech represents the old traditions and mores of Greece while the contrasting Unjust speech is considered to be newfangled and cynical towards the old. While the defeat of Just speech by Unjust speech does not render Pheidippides the ability to overcome Strepsiades, it is a parallel that may be compared with many other instances in Mythology and real life.
The three aspects of this worldview often when illustrated in historical works, such as in Spartan Society, need to be understood and examined together because of the large amount of overlapping in worldview concepts. For example, the humanistic view of Lycurgus and his many great accomplishments does not only prove the emphasis of human accomplishments as seen in ancient Greek humanism, but as they are often put in contrast to the other countries and described as these ideals that the “other” cannot attain proves to illustrate the idealism present in the worldview of the ancient Spartan people. Lycurgus, as recorded in Spartan Society, also is seen in a rationalistic way of thought. Xenophon will even say, “I certainly admire him and consider him in the highest degree a wise man” (Spartan Society, 166). Lycurgus, the highest of wise men, is the leader, and the man who does not follow the ways of the “others,” but takes the high road and creates the ideal society through his many great accomplishments. The “others” or sometimes referred to as “elsewhere” is mentioned frequently in this account of this great
An Analysis of Thucydides' Views on the Melian Dialogue The Melian Dialogue is a debate between Melian and Athenian representatives concerning the sovereignty of Melos. The debate did not really occur-the arguments given by each side were of Thucydides own creation. Thus it is reasonable to assume that we can tease out Thucydides' own beliefs.
This epic poem by the ancient Greek poet Homer, recounts some of the significant events of the final weeks of the Trojan War and the Greek siege of the city of Troy. All of the places where Homer’s stories took place were in areas that had been significant in the Bronze Age of Ancient Greece. Excavations at Troy and Mycenae have revealed that affluent kingdoms did indeed exist there. The Iliad provides examples of the culture and traditions that took place in Ancient Greece. The warrior culture that is presented in The Iliad is based on honor and bravery, a good example of this is when Diomedes is trying to rally his fellow warriors in says, “I know only cowards depart from battle. A real warrior stands his ground. Whether he is hit or hits another.” This society was strongly against cowardice; bravery was the only option in these times. The Iliad preserves the Ancient Greek’s views on masculinity and what it meant to be a “real warrior” in their times. The evolution of what people consider honorable and brave is evident, for The Iliad has conserved past views that can be juxtaposed with more modern
In Thucydides’, “The Peloponnesian War”, there is a specific passage that was rejected in antiquity and is still reject now by most modern scholars, book 3 paragraph 84. It does seem, however, that this paragraph was added in by almost a want to-be Thucydides imitator because it seems to break his character. Nevertheless, I believe that this paragraph should be included with the rest of the book. Although, the text is somewhat difficult to understand how it could fit in with Thucydides, it does follow his train of thought throughout the books. My argument is that I fully agree, that the passage in book 3 paragraph 84, is indeed Thucydides’, although it seems a little out of place, it fits in with the other themes of his work and this paper will explain how.
... weaker state will remain neutral from a military strength. Melians’ loss reaffirms the absolute power of imperial conquests and nationalism in theories of realism. Since the Melians were allied with the Spartans and failed to cooperate, it is justifiable that the Athenians had the right to want to rule and invade the Melians as means to protect their own strengths.
Thucydides recounts the events that took place during the civil war in Corcyra. In the year 427 tensions between the Democrats and Oligarchs exploded into civil war, both sides hailing allies from all over the world for aid. At first the Oligarchs received aid from large a Peloponnesian naval fleet, which gave the democrats a scare. However, the Democrats receive back up from an ever-larger Athenian fleet, sending the Democrats into a killing frenzy of all who supported the Oligarchy. Thucydides describes the situation during the civil war in Corcyra by saying that the citizens are sharply divided into two camps, consisting of Democrats on one side and Oligarchs on the other. There is a complete lack of trust on both sides and traditional values and social norms are being completely disregarded. As stated by Thucydides “In war, due to the availability of opportunity aggressiveness rises to the surface” (3.82),
Out of the confrontation with Cephalus, Polemarchus, and Thrasymachus, Socrates emerges as a reflective individual searching for the rational foundation of morality and human excellence. The views presented by the three men are invalid and limited as they present a biased understanding of justice and require a re-examination of the terminology. The nature in which the faulty arguments are presented, leave the reader longing to search for the rational foundations of morality and human virtue.
Thrasymachus starts off by stating his conclusion: justice is the advantage of the stronger. He then gives Socrates two premises that he uses to arrive at his conclusion first that rulers of cities are stronger than their subjects and second that rulers declare what is just and unjust by making laws for their subjects to follow. Since justice is declared by the stronger then it must surely be a tool for the stronger.
In Thucydides’ recount of “The Melian Debate”, the context is the sixteenth year of the Peloponnesian War (415 BC) on the isle of Melos. This time period falls during the Second Peloponnesian War (between the Spartans and Athenians), a time historians recount as more aggressive and violent than the First War. In addition, during this time span, both Sparta and Athens were major Greek powers with mighty armies and navies. Therefore, this document is important because, although Athenian written, it gives modern times an insight to the thoughts and actions of these two groups during the war. Leading off
Thrasymachus’s main argument is that, “Justice is nothing but the advantage of the stronger” (338c). In other words, Thrasymachus believes justice is advantageous to the stronger because those who behave justly are disadvantaged, and the strong who behave unjustly are advantaged. In his sense injustice is more profitable than justice because it allows people to enjoy benefits they would not obtain if they were to act just.
The Realist, absolutely dedicated to the preservation and security of the Athenian Empire declares stoutly, “General, it is no great surprise that our negotiations reflected the success and dominance of realism in the political arena.” The Liberal, mindful of universal pathos over such a nationalistic approach, gasps. Deeply moved by the proceedings of the Melian dialogue, and aghast at the lack of understanding in her fellow representatives, she offers a venomous retort, “To hell with realism! Can’t you see the truth? Oh, my comrades are blind to the universal laws of right and wrong! Truly, our very invasion of this people is immoral! We should be moved by empathy and compassion for the Melians!” A steady, even voice i...
Because of the tranquil times, the civilization’s society had more time to focus on writing, math, astronomy, and artistic fields, as well as trade and metallurgy. Out of all the city-states of Greece, two excelled over all the rest, Sparta and Athens. Even though they were the most advanced and strong civilizations, they were bitter enemies. While Athens focused mainly on the people’s democracy and citizen rights, Sparta were ferocious and enslaved its original inhabitants, making them unable to leave and kept under a close eye to prevent insurgence (History of Greece:The Golden Age of Greece). Additionally, Sparta had strict and trained soldiers that underwent intense physical exercising and instruction.